350: Avoiding Training Mistakes: Fueling, Injury, and Loving the Run with Dr. Lisa Mitro

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This is the real life runners podcast, episode number 350 today we're talking to Dr. Lisa mitro, a physical therapist and run coach that specializes in the prevention and treatment of running injury. She's helped thousands of runners from across the globe. And she's on a mission to inspire and educate runners of all experiences and ages so that they can continue running. Pain-free she liked myself is a true believer. That movement is medicine. You guys are going to love this episode today. I'm really excited for you to hear a lot of the insights that Lisa shares with us about mistakes that a lot of runners make when they're starting out on their running journey and a lot of runners. That make fueling mistakes that really can impact their performance and how they feel and how all of that contributes to running injuries or preventing running injuries. So if you're interested, stay tuned.

Angie: 1:12

All right, everybody, welcome to the show today. I am super excited that we have Dr. Lisa Mitro on the podcast with me today. Hey, Lisa,

Lisa: 1:20

how are you? Oh, thank you so much for having me. I am great. How are you

Angie: 1:25

doing? I'm doing awesome. And I'm super excited to have this conversation with you today. For those of you that might not know, Dr. Lisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are? What do you do? And who do you

Lisa: 1:38

Yeah. Oh man. Where do I begin? Okay. So I am, let's go wide view. I'm a physical therapist and running coach and I really started running in grad school. I guess technically I started running before that, but I didn't love it. I played softball all throughout high school and into college. So running for me was like, You know, you did something wrong, go for a run or do it was mostly do sprints. So in grad school, I needed a way to relieve my stress and just clear my head. So I'd always run, you know, 30 minutes, same pace, couple times a week. And then after grad school, I realized I have all this free time. What do I do with myself? And at the same time I was working in a sports medicine clinic that was treating like. 90 percent runners all training for the Marine Corps marathon in DC. So I was like, well, they're telling me all these cool places to run. Like maybe I should go check it out. I have all this free time. And that's when I started to increase my mileage and really fall more into running and understanding more about running than I ever had before. So I think that's kind of how my love for running started. Okay, cool.

Angie: 2:53

So when you got into running, was it more of kind of like a stress reliever for you then, like in grad

Lisa: 3:00

school? Yes, a hundred percent. It was Just to clear my head. Like, I think, you know, it was like half my PT class would go to the same gym and we'd all be on the treadmill trying to relieve our stress. So it was, it was definitely not to look a certain way or really, um, it was just like, I guess it was to feel a certain way because it released endorphins. It, you know, reset my, um, mental status, I guess you could say. So I didn't go absolutely insane studying all the time. So,

Angie: 3:33

yeah. It's so funny because, uh, like, I just had a flashback to grad school when you said this because it was the same for us too, it's, we would do classes all day long and then basically our entire PT class would essentially go to the health center afterwards and lift and run and that's just what we did and it's funny because I think in PT school, it obviously attracts a much more active population, like if you want to become a physical therapist, you very likely have some sort of sports background and um, athletic background. So I think that it just became such a part of the culture of PT school and like doing all of that. It's just kind of like, that's what we do. You know, we, we go to class all day, we learn about

Lisa: 4:17

the body and then we go work out. Yep, I'll still remember some of my classmates trying to study on the treadmill and I'm like, why are you doing that? Let's just take a break. Yeah, that's a terrible idea.

Angie: 4:30

So how did, how has your running journey, personal running journey evolved over the

Lisa: 4:34

years? Oh man, I wish I could go back and tell myself so many things that I know now. I think before when I started running, I indirectly labeled myself as a beginner runner. I remember a girl that lived in my apartment building and she'd always run six miles on a Saturday. And I was just like, wow, that's so far. Like, I just remember being like, that's so far for me. Um, But at the same time, when I was running my 30 miles, I was, or not 30 miles, that's a joke, three miles. I was getting out the door and just sprinting as hard as I could the whole way. And it wasn't about slowing down. It wasn't about speed work. It wasn't about hitting a certain goal. Like it was really just about clearing my, um, stress and like reducing my stress. So then out of grad school, when I started to increase my mileage just a little bit, I had to learn to slow down. I had to learn to take breaks and walk when I needed to. And that really helped me to just also like take in nature and like start to enjoy my runs more versus being like, you know, you only have 30 minutes, just go out there and come back and then sit at your desk and study. So I think that was like the start of. Enjoying to run. And then when I moved back to Richmond, um, one thing that I learned very quickly was one, you cannot strength train the same way that, um, everyone else strength, strength, strength train. So I was becoming very sore after my strength training sessions into my runs. Now it's really affecting my runs. Um, but I think like the overall picture is that I just. learned from my mistakes. I think I made so many mistakes. I talk about them all the time, but I'm okay with that. Like looking back, I'm like, that's okay because I learned from them. I probably wouldn't have learned from them if someone just told me what it was and like told me what to do. So I think, um, I'm like very grateful for, I guess, going through those difficulties with running and then learning from them.

Angie: 6:47

Yeah. I mean, it is true that we do learn so much from our mistakes. What would you say were some of the mistakes that kind of stand out the most to you? And what

Lisa: 6:57

did you learn from them? Okay, so I, this is like actually funny to look back on. So I remember when I, okay, so I signed up for my first half marathon. I was living in DC. I was not in a good mental state when I lived in DC. I only lived there for a couple months before I moved back home to Richmond, Virginia. And I just remember being like, it's New Year's Day. What do I want to do this year? It was like, you know, pay off some student loans. read some books, run a half marathon. Sure. Why not? So I signed up for the, I signed up for the half that day and it was in November. So I was like, I have, you know, months and months and months. Yeah. Well, fast forward. I was like, Oh my gosh, I have a week until training. Like I need to run. I hadn't run because. Yeah. I was moving and I had some changes going on. So I remember running two miles, like two days before the training plan started and I was like, and then I went zero to a hundred with the training plan. So that was a big no, no.

Angie: 7:58

But so many runners do that, right? So many runners, they sign up for a race first and then they try to kind of fit their training in, or they don't really do much. They're very inconsistent until the start of that training plan.

Lisa: 8:14

Yeah. And it was like, why did I just go zero to a hundred? Like I got injured very quickly. Um, the other thing, like I said, like I was just strength training wrong. And my runs were very, um, like I was following a training plan and I was sticking to it running the three days a week, but it was like, I just remember this so vividly, my speed workouts when I was, when it was like, all right, increase your pace and like actually pick up your pace. I remember I would pick up my pace, like. 20 seconds. And I was like, all right, that's all I got in the system. Like, because I was running so fast on the other mileage that it was like, I don't like, there's not a big difference in my pace. And I just remember thinking, why is there not a big difference in my pace? Like, just very confused and like, really not sure what to do. Take of it. But yeah, um, that was something that definitely stood out, which is so

Angie: 9:09

interesting, right? Because at this point, you are already a physical therapist. You already have a doctorate degree. And so quote unquote, you should know better, but we actually don't, right? Like we, we don't know everything until we actually take the time to learn about these things and to learn about training errors. And this is not something that they. Teach us in physical therapy school. They don't necessarily teach the way to properly train or the way to improve performance. They treat the way that the rest of the medical system is wired, which is here's how to treat an injury after it's already occurred,

Lisa: 9:47

right? Exactly. I think we had like an hour in gait lab based on running and it was really It wasn't about like the specifics of the running form. It was just like, this is how it's different from walking. Like it was not like,

Angie: 10:03

these are the muscles that turn on and these are the muscles that

Lisa: 10:05

turn off. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So everything that I had to learn was based on my mentors. I luckily had really good mentors out of the school, but again, they're teaching me about the rehab part. They're not teaching me about training plan. Like I didn't know anything about the training plan part. So that's where I was like. You know, I would just question myself, but I didn't have an answer to it. But at least I would question it. Like looking back, I'm like, at least I would, you know, I didn't know the answer, but I would still ask myself and be like, that's interesting.

Angie: 10:39

Yeah. And it is so, it is very interesting, right? Because we know as physical therapists, we know so much about the human body and we know so much about movement and those kinds of things. But we are still subject to making some training errors and part, part of that is lack of knowledge on the actual training and performance and which we have to go out and find good resources to help us with. And then part of it is also that there are individual differences that always occur, you know, between person and person and runner and runner that. One thing just because it is the quote unquote accepted way to do things doesn't always work for everyone in the same way.

Lisa: 11:19

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I didn't even know like where to turn to get answers. I think luckily social media has like a lot of good resources now, but I mean, I, you know, I couldn't Google it. What's Google going to tell me like some generic thing that I probably was already trying. So I think that was another thing was I just really didn't know like Who to turn to, what to do. Um, so how'd you figure it out? I got injured. I did not figure it out at the beginning. I was very frustrated. And I think this is the other part where, you know, I, whenever I say like something's interesting, like I'm not, um, I like to like really think about it. And so when I got injured, I remember specifically having pain only when running. And it was pain in the back of my knee on the lateral side and then into my foot. And this is the part where it's like, what the heck? Because I worked with nine physical therapists when I got injured in the sports med, uh, outpatient setting. Yeah. Not one of them could tell me why I was having pain. And all of them looked at me and like looked at my running form, everything. And it wasn't until I went to a, Continuing ed course two weeks before my race, of course, where the guy was like, Oh, you know, you have this going on. Um, but I was like, well, it's a little late now. Like, I haven't put my endurance up at all yet. Looking back on, like, the exercises that the PTs that I worked with gave me, it's like. And now, it's like, what I know now, and like, looking back, it's like, I can't believe we even said we treat runners there. Because this is like And was this a

Angie: 13:14

specialty clinic where you treated 90 percent of runners too?

Lisa: 13:19

Yes. Yeah. So it was very like, I cannot even believe that we even labeled ourselves as being able to treat runners when, like, it was a very different diagnosis. It, I mean, it wasn't really like a diagnosis. It was just like a biomechanical thing. But, um, it's just like, No, no one could figure it out. Like everyone was just like, you know, use a massage gun or like, let me soft tissue it, release your glutes, clamshells, bridges, leg lifts, like all that. And it's like, looking back, it's like, man, we totally messed that up. But that was just something

Angie: 13:53

I learned from. I'm so curious now. Can we please get a little technical? Because now I'm really curious. What

Lisa: 13:58

was going on? So I had a Let me see if I can even remember it. I had hypermobility in my knee, and it was causing the nerve to pinch because, and that caused my foot to go numb. Um, it was because I had weakness in my calf and my hamstring, basically. Like, I was very, quote, quad dominant. Literally only did deadlifts for my, um, hamstrings and like really didn't strength in my calves. So, and this was, you know, five years ago, but I think like once the guy was like moving the joint in my knee and I was like, oh my gosh, that's so clunky and like hyper mobile. I was like, oh my gosh, no wonder. Like. The second I'm doing anything high impact, I'm having like this pain here. And then eventually it pinches on the nerve, which is a different diagnosis. Like assignment diagnosis, it's a biomechanical situation, but you know, it still is like, that's not, you know, if you just test what you need to test, you can come up with the impairments and figure out what's going on, you know?

Angie: 15:05

Yeah. And I think so many people are looking for that label. They want that diagnosis and like you just pointed out, it's not always that simple, right? It's, there's very often a lot of things at play. There's a lot of things going on. Running is a very complex movement in the body. We all think that it's very simple because it's something that we've been doing since we were toddlers, right? Like since the time we were, what, a year and a half, two years old, we've been running, But that's very different than Long distance endurance running and the, the muscular, the muscular strength and stability and everything that's happening and needed in the body to make that happen in a way that's not going to get us injured is a very complex web of things that all need to work together correctly.

Lisa: 15:50

Yep. Exactly. And I still remember like going to the running store, trying on like a hundred pairs of shoes and being like, Nope, I still got the pain. Like thinking it was the shoes fault. Cause I hadn't changed my shoes in a while. And like, it was just like, Oh my gosh. Like looking back, I was like, I've, I re this injury really set me back too, because I knew I could do other things besides run. Like running was the only thing that caused the pain, but I was a couch potato. I literally did not. Do anything. Luckily, I had a puppy at the time. So I was forced to like walk him, but I didn't shrink train. I didn't bike or cycle or anything else that I enjoyed. And it really like set me back mentally until one day I was finally like, all right, it's time to pick yourself up and like do something that, you know, even though you're not running, you can still do other things that, you know, you enjoy.

Angie: 16:44

So what led you into? Deciding to work with runners and deciding to help runners in the way that you're helping them now.

Lisa: 16:54

So it goes along with this story actually, because after a couple of months of like really being down in the dumps, I'll call it. I was like, all right, I need to start shrink training again, because that is something that I really enjoy doing. So I started shrink training, but it wasn't the same shrink training that I did in my training plan a couple of months ago, because I knew that that shrink training was not. Specific to runners. It was just like a general workout, really only working powerhouse muscles. So I was like, all right, it's time that I like take what I know about physical therapy and treating runners and apply it to my own, because otherwise I'm just going to be miserable for a long period of time. So I started strength training. I started making it more specific to running and picking up on movement patterns and then of injured runners, applying it to my workout. And then I remember, um. I was out of town. So my work sent me to Virginia beach to, uh, open a clinic. They sent me and my dog. So we stayed in a hotel room and I was like, all right, well, I have to get him. Like he had so much energy. So I was like, I have to get his energy out while we're stuck in this hotel room for two months. So I would run with him along the boardwalk. And this was after a couple of months of strength training. So I was like, my gosh, I don't have pain anymore. Like this is amazing. Isn't it amazing that you just strengthen the areas. that are weaker and address it and then the pain can go away like weird and I think that's I know right and I think that's where I was like. Wow, I don't think we have even cracked open to a lot of these general outpatient clinics even knowing a lot about running so I think that's what initially was like the light bulb moment where I was like, okay, like I can help someone who was in my shoes and like frustrated in my shoes from what I had been through.

Angie: 18:44

Yeah, and that's so powerful and I think that's where we just end up, you know, creating these things so that we can help more people because we as physical therapists, that's what our goal is to help more people and what a better way to do it than using your own experience and your own pain and your own struggles to say, I'm, I want to create something so that other people don't have to go through this also, or people can get, you know, much quicker results. are faster than I did, right? They don't have to go through all the pain and suffering that I did, which is really, really powerful. Um, so there's a couple other things that I really want to talk about. And I think that these. Are kind of related here, but I want to kind of go back a little bit because we got off on a little bit of a tangent. I want to go back to what you said earlier about easy running when you said that you when you got to D. C. and you started to actually slow down your runs, you started putting walking breaks in, and that really allowed you to start enjoying your runs more. How did you kind of at that point, did you know what you were doing? Like, did you like start to learn and read about this concept of running easy and the 80 20 rule, um, or did you just kind of slow down naturally? Like, what was your mindset

Lisa: 20:00

during that time? Yeah, I definitely did not know 80, 20 at all. It was more so me increasing my mileage, but sticking to the same pace that I was used to and then being out of breath to the point where I had to walk. So, um, yeah. And I think it's something where it's like, I wasn't doing speed work. I was just running like. You know, up and back along this trail pretty much three times a week, I would say. Um, so if I was like, okay, well I have all this extra time. Like why don't I just increase it to like five miles this time? And then I would have to walk a little bit more because I hadn't built up my endurance. I hadn't slowed down my pace. Like I was also very in my head about being at a certain pace. And if I wasn't at a certain pace, then it's almost like the run was a flop and. You know, I don't know why I even thought that, like, looking back. Yeah, but you're not

Angie: 21:00

alone, like, we all, I feel like all of us at some point have that exact same story. I know I did, for sure. Like, and it's these labels that we put in because for whatever reason, this is the pace that we decided is a good pace for us or is our normal pace and we just put a label on it and say, okay, well, like, I guess that's it. And then I think that that's something that's so common that so many people can relate to.

Lisa: 21:24

Yeah. And that I took with me when I moved back to Richmond, I took that same mentality. Like I have to hit this pace. I have to hit this pace. I took that with me throughout my training of the half, even though I had to cut it short because of, um, my injury, I pretty much took this like mindset around this pace until last year, which is like, I had that mindset for years. Years. Like it's so what very interesting. So last spring, I ran a 10 K and this was six months after I had COVID. And I just remember being, you know, I hadn't increased my endurance. I'd prepared for this 10 K, but I just remember it was almost like this thought just came to my head. That was like, If you ever want to run a longer distance, you need to change something because at the end of the race, I could feel my heart like beating out of my chest. Do you know that feeling where it's like a little more intense than when you finish like a hard workout? It's kind of like, okay, maybe I need to like calm down a little bit. You know, take a breather, sit down, get some water, like this seems like is way too high right now and I remember going home and being like, I'm just not doing this right. Like, I knew I wasn't doing it right, but I didn't know where to go. So that's when I dove into the research, started reading more books on running, started actually Being interested in 80 20 started actually understanding how to slow down. I remember I was running with my mom on a Saturday and I never like to go quote slower than this one pace. And I was like, Mom, what if we, um, slowed down to this pace, which was Very wild for me to say, because it was about a minute slower than this pace. I never wanted to go slower than, and then we finished the run and we were like, that was so fun. Like, we feel like we enjoyed it. The pressure was off. Like, we could talk. So I think that's when it was like, for some reason, I was like, you know, what if we actually slowed down and didn't like kill ourselves on this Saturday? Yeah, and that's where it really started.

Angie: 23:34

All right, cool. So then, after that, right, like, did it just come easy to you after that or did you continue to struggle with this mindset of, like, I have to hit this certain pace, like, what does this mean, because I know that there's a lot of runners That we work with, especially when they're new to us and they come in and they have this preconceived idea of I am a slow runner. So when they come in and I tell them well, you need to slow down even more It's something that mentally they struggle with. So is that something that you ever struggled with? After you kind of had that experience of wow, this feels so much better

Lisa: 24:13

So when I started slowing down, um, I was really only slowing down for, I would say like two ish weeks before I decided to jump into zone two training. And that was a really good mindset shift for me because that's when I stopped looking at my pace. Like I made a rule like you will not look at your pace during the run. You will only look at your heart rate. Um, and I think that made the shift for me because then it was like, this isn't about What pace you're hitting. This is about training your heart. Like you need to stick with this for a couple of months. And I told myself, you know, I'll stick with it for, I think, I think I said three months and worst case scenario, my running stays the same best case scenario. It improves. So I think when I really just, I took pace out of it and I was like, cause I didn't know. Like, even though I had slowed down, I hadn't slowed down enough, so I was still probably, like, even when I told my mom, like, let's slow down, I was probably still, like, 5 or 6 out of 10 on that RPE scale. Like, it was still Not enough, especially if I wanted to run longer distance, which for some reason in my head I had, I wanted to run longer distance. So I think once I started really looking at zone two and like, I wasn't super strict with my zone two training. I think that's some misconception. Like you have to stick, you know, Be really, really strict with it. But I wasn't super strict with it. I would just glance at my watch and be like, Oh, it's at one 70 beats per minute. And I'm supposed to be running slow. This is not, you know, what it's supposed to be. Um, so I think, you know, taking my pace out of it definitely helped.

Angie: 25:56

Yeah, I would definitely agree because it's funny how these little things on our wrist can really dictate how we feel about our run sometimes, right? Like if that number on our wrist is not showing us the number that we want to see or that we think we quote unquote should be seeing, we can let it mean something very negative about Us as a runner and our ability, so I think that's a very smart idea to just take pace completely out of the equation and I like your the way that you framed your mindset there of like, I'm doing this to train my heart. I'm doing this. It's Bye. You gave yourself a new purpose, a new goal for that training block, you know, that three month block, which is really, really powerful. Because then, whatever the pace was, you could just remind yourself of why you were doing what you were doing and say, Yep, okay, I did it the way that I did hit my goal. The pace doesn't matter right

Lisa: 26:58

now. Yeah, and that, taking that off, like, I enjoyed my run when I slowed down just a little bit, but I really enjoyed it when I slowed down a lot more and yeah, without even having the pressure of the pace. I was able to open up this world of if I did that easily and quote easily was compared to my past of just kind of like running as hard as it could through that mileage, if I could do this mileage. You know, more easily and enjoy it. What happens if I do this? Try for this mileage. And that's when I was like, I'm going to sign up for a full marathon. So I think, you know, I definitely jumped to conclusions with the full marathon, but I gave myself enough time to train for it. Um, but I just opened up a world to, you know, that wasn't as bad as it used to be. Like, I don't feel as exhausted. I have more energy for my speed workouts and. I'm recovering a lot faster and I think it just opened up this world of like, well, if I can do this, what else can I do? Yeah,

Angie: 28:03

and I love that so much because I think that's It's really highlights the power of running, the power of curiosity and opening up, opening up new possibilities for ourselves that we never would have imagined before. And you and I share a very common origin story, which is funny, you know, coming, I played volleyball, basketball and softball growing up running was punishment. Like I had those same things. If you would have told me. You know, my senior year of high school that I would be a running coach right now, I would have laughed at you. I'd be like, what are you talking about, right? But it's that That feeling that you get and those thoughts that you get when you do the thing that you never thought you could do and what that opens up for you, it's so powerful and it can trickle down into so many different areas of your life

Lisa: 28:52

as well. Yeah, exactly. And I stopped caring about, you know, I used to care about what people would think if they saw me running and I'm now at this certain pace and like, yeah, it's like, who cares? Like, I'm. They should be like jealous of me for one running But they should also be thinking like good for her like they're not people don't actually care as much as we think too Yeah, so I think that was one thing where I was like just nervous about for again It's like why was I nervous about that? Like I'm doing this for me not for them. Mm hmm and

Angie: 29:26

when you started to slow down and Enjoy it more and and kind of train in this very intentional way What did you notice about how your body felt and your it the injuries that you experienced?

Lisa: 29:40

This is amazing. So I had been dealing with hip impingement early last year. I took care of it, but that was one thing I was nervous about when I started training for the marathon was like, is this going to come back? You know, you always think about that despite all the rehab exercises and pre rehab exercises. But I quickly realized that if I slowed down, had intention with my training, then. I my body like overall was just less sore and felt like it was less beaten up if that's if you understand that like it just felt very like, wow, you know, that wasn't that bad. Like I could keep going if I wanted to, but I'm not because I'm sticking with this training plan. So that was one thing where I just felt like I had more energy despite running all these miles and another thing I noticed. Very interesting. So I have run two half marathons, completed them. The first one that I signed up for, I did not complete, but I have completed two half marathons and I remember it. So, yeah. When I was training for both of those, I would crave sugar and like, I'm not one that really eats a ton of sugar, but like, I would have to have like my M& Ms at night or like my ice cream at night and like, just very like. Different like very different than what I had been experiencing before training. So I was craving this sugar. And once I started slowing down, I was fully prepared to be craving sugar, but I was like, Oh, like, I actually feel like I don't like my cravings were different. And when I looked into it, I was like, Oh, it's because I'm not using glucose as my energy source. Like, so, so interesting about that. I specifically remember being like, Wow, this is like amazing. I didn't even realize that I forgot that I was like craving sugar before.

Angie: 31:29

Ah, oh my gosh, that is so huge. And I think that like, I want so many runners to hear that because I don't know if you've experienced this a lot with the clients you've worked with, because I know you you focus a lot on rehab, but so many runners. I think sign up for half marathons or marathons and they have this goal of losing weight in the process and they go out there and they push harder because it makes sense if you're trying to lose weight and you have this mentality of Like I just need to burn more calories. I just need to push harder I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna push these runs harder and then you end up craving more sugar because you're burning through your body's glucose stores instead of using the fat on your body as as fuel and your body becomes much less efficient at that sourcing that fuel. Um, so it's so interesting that you mentioned that because I think that that's a reason or that's what happens to a lot of runners is that they're pushing their runs too hard. Which means they're tapping into different fuel sources in their body, which then means that they are craving more, and that leads to a lot more binge eating, and weight gain, and those kinds of things, and people don't understand it, because in their mind, well, I'm pushing harder, I'm going faster, that should mean that I'm burning more calories, why the heck am I gaining weight? And they don't understand how these two things relate, and so that example really shows why

Lisa: 32:51

that happens. Yeah, and Even thinking about, like, the previous two halves, I remember I would, like, eat dinner, and then I'd have to eat, like, a bag of popcorn, and then, like, M& M's, like, it was, like, always hungry, and I also did not fuel during either of those half marathons, like, even, none during training, none during the half, and not because I chose not to, it's because, well, I guess I did choose not to, but I didn't really, like, Fully understand. Yeah. Fueling. Um, but then during the marathon, like even in training, I did not, and I had gained weight through the previous two halves, I think like three or four pounds. And during the marathon training, I was very intentional with my fueling, like stuck to a specific fueling strategy, even like pre run during run post run, I ended up losing weight and. I think, you know, there's so many aspects of weight loss, but I do think my fueling strategy and slowing down were two really big contributors because I didn't feel the need to binge food post race or like post run or like at night or anything like that. And I think, you know, I still would fuel like every 30 minutes during my You know, long runs are like longer runs. So I think that's really interesting. Oh my gosh, I

Angie: 34:14

love, I love this so much because it's the literally the opposite of what most people think, right? Most people think if I push harder and eat less, I will lose weight. And here you are telling me that you ate more. And ran slower, and you still, and you lost weight. Because most people would be like, Oh, well, of course she lost weight. It was a marathon. You know, she trained for a marathon. But it's, it wasn't the distance at all that led to that. It was your fueling and recovery strategy.

Lisa: 34:40

Yeah, and it took it did take some trial and error to get it correct because again, this was my first time fueling like I was trying my hardest to get it right because I knew how I felt when I fueled versus if I didn't feel yeah, and I even remember like during my long group runs like I would try to fuel every 30 minutes and I remember. In the beginning, like the first couple, like month or so of training. And I was like, Oh, I just have three miles left. Like I don't have to take my last gel. And then I'd finish the run. I'd be so hangry, like hungry and angry. Like I was like, I'm going to eat my hand off. Like I'm so hungry. And it turned into me like. Bingeing versus if I was like, just take the fuel at the time, even if you have a mile left, even if you have two miles left, when I started doing that, it was like, Oh my gosh, like, this is, I just feel more like normal, like no longer hangry, no longer feel insane. Um, and I would just eat like my normal post run meal and go on with my day. And it wouldn't be like a full on binge where I just felt like I had to eat everything in sight. That is

Angie: 35:51

so, so huge and it really shows you, everyone listening, please, please, please pay attention to this. And it was this mindset shift that Lisa had here about I'm going to take care of my body and fuel it for the activity that I am asking it to do. I am asking it to run a lot of miles, so I need to fuel and put gas in the tank to support my body for what I'm asking it to do and so many times I think we just put our bodies under such abuse and we Ask our bodies to run longer and run faster, and then we restrict and don't give our body the fuel that it needs. And when we do, beautiful things happen. You get faster, you run longer, you reduce injury. Like, you haven't really told us about your injuries yet, but like, that's what I see a lot too, right? A lot of running injuries happen because people aren't fueling and they're not recovering properly. And yes, of course, there's the strength exercises and the weakness and everything that, that plays in a very large role there as well. But so many running injuries are a result of not, not recovering properly. And a huge part of recovery is fueling.

Lisa: 37:08

Yeah, a hundred percent. I remember luckily I was in a good group, um, training. Um, on Saturdays where we would talk about like the fueling that we were doing and if we liked it or not and like, I remember seeing like, uh, the girl that I would run with, she would fuel with like a couple miles left and like, I was like, okay, maybe I should do that. My stomach is making the loudest noises ever also. And this is embarrassing. So maybe I should take my last fuel that I have in my pocket and see what happens and finish the run nice and strong and also help with recovery. And I think I do think that fueling helped me. I mean, I ran in the entire marathon without an injury. I felt great. I felt amazing during this training. Like I think I was the strongest I've ever been. And I'm a collegiate athlete. I was the strongest I've ever been. I felt like I could conquer literally anything. And I had so much energy. Like I still remember. I'd go for like a 10 mile run in the middle of the day and be like, all right, who wants to go for a walk? Like, you know, like who wants to do this? And my fiance is like, aren't you tired? And I'm like, no, I actually feel great. Like, I feel amazing. And. Um, I think that was something where I fully expected in this marathon. Like I was like, all right, if I sign up for this, like good thing, I don't have a lot of like social events this fall. Cause I'm just going to be exhausted. And you know, I did, there were days like I did want to go to bed early, but it wasn't like a, I just feel sluggish. Like I feel like I came and focus. I'm so tired sort of situation that I had in the past training for half the distance really.

Angie: 38:51

Yeah, and that's so powerful for people to hear because so many of us have this restrictive mentality around food, around fueling, and they have this minimalistic approach to it all of like, well, if I'm fueling, then how much can I get away with, you know, like what's the least amount of fuel that I can get away with. And it's asking the question, well, how much better would you feel? How much better could you feel in this process? If you allowed yourself to eat more and if you allowed yourself to fuel more, like what would that be like? And I like to just open, throw up that question to people because I think that curiosity is such a strong. Um, emotion for us to tap into because so what if you gain a couple of pounds, you can lose it, right? If it doesn't work out, but what if, what if it works out in your favor, you know? And that's really what I'm hearing through your story is you decided to actually fuel your body and you felt so much better in the process. And I just hope that so many people can hear that and really will allow themselves to eat more. Before, during and after their runs so that they can actually fuel themselves like the athlete that they are. Because I think that so many recreational runners don't think of themselves as athletes. They think of like running is just this thing I do or running is a way for me to lose weight or running is a way for me to manage my mental health. But if you're out there doing. Compet any sort of competitive races, five Ks, 10 Ks, especially when you get into half marathons, marathons or ultras, you have to be thinking like an athlete and fueling yourself appropriately. If you want to get the

Lisa: 40:31

best results. Yeah, I think that was one big mindset shift that I had to make. I knew I had to make it to run a marathon and like, I was thinking of. The runners who fuel are the more advanced runners in the beginning, or I'm just a beginner recreational runner. I don't even know where to start with fuel. Like this gel is not even that good. And I think when I was like, all right, if I'm going to run a marathon, like I'm going to do it right. But I really. Wish I also had in my head, like if I'm going to run a half marathon, I'm going to do it right. If I'm around a 5k, 10k, like it doesn't, it shouldn't be just longer distances because I think, you know, it would have improved my performance if I just knocked that mentality off and was like, all right, this is just gonna. Improve my performance overall versus and I have a low glucose, so I was even like getting the shape. I get the shakes. I get lightheaded. I get this really weird feeling like, Oh my gosh, I need to like sit down or else I'm going to feel like I'm going to pass out. So I was running through that, which is just totally insane. Like no wonder I hit a wall. Um, but I think it's also something important to notice that I did not limit myself. or restrict myself at all with my, um, food outside of running. Mm-Hmm, when I lost this weight and I lost 10 pounds, so I think over a, what, six months maybe. So I was still And you're not a big person ex Yeah, I'm not a big person. I'm five three and I don't even consider myself like overweight or anything like that. Right. I would like go to brunch with my friends and I'd be like, we're getting cinnamon rolls. Like I don't know what y'all are doing, but I'm getting cinnamon rolls and I'm also getting this burrito. Like I did not restrict myself. Yeah. I made very conscious decisions about getting in the protein, getting in the carbs, but I was not like, I'm doing this to lose weight. Like I have to restrict myself. It was not like that at all. I was like, I remember like I went over to my parents house and they were, my mom was like, you look really skinny. And I was like, do I like, I don't even own a scale. So I didn't even know. And I'm, I wear like, you know, short athletic shorts all day. So I don't really know, but I was like, Oh my gosh, I have lost a lot of weight. Yeah, exactly. So it was just like, Oh, I didn't even realize that had happened. I thought I was just like gaining muscle because I was working out and like, you know, doing more intense. Exercising and like, I don't know. I think it was, again, it was combination of a lot of things, but I most definitely did not do it to lose weight. And I most definitely continue to fuel, like even way more than a lot of my. Friends would fuel and I think that's really important to note it

Angie: 43:19

absolutely is and it's really this mindset shift of Instead of if your goal is to lose weight the goal. Well, if that's what you would like to happen I always encourage people to try to shift away from weight and to make the goal performance Which is exactly what you're saying here Health or performance is like I want to be become a healthier person. I want to become a stronger runner I want to feel good in my half marathon make that the goal and if that is the goal The weight loss often is a side effect of that because we're taking care of our bodies in a way that our bodies can say, Oh, okay, like, I don't have to hold on to this extra weight anymore because I'm being very well cared for. I am getting the fuel that I need to support the activity level. I am getting the recovery that I need. I can let go of some of this extra weight that I'm holding on to because I don't need it anymore. And that's what people don't understand is like, that's how our bodies work. Like we hold on to extra weight. protective mechanism like that is our bodies like natural protective mechanism is to have fuel on our bodies at all times so that we don't die. And so if we're not giving it the fuel that it needs, it's going to hold onto things thinking, okay, well in the future, if I don't have it, I have to make sure I have it on me just in case. And so when we shift our focus to performance, to health, to feeling better, oftentimes that weight loss is. kind of a natural side effect and a very desired side effect in some people, which is, which is cool. But the, the fun part about it is that you get both. Like a lot of times when we focus just on the weight, we don't always lose the weight. Sometimes we do, right. But we don't always lose it. And we also sacrifice our health in the process. But if we just shift the focus to, to health and performance, then we often get both things together.

Lisa: 45:10

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I feel like my weight fluctuates a lot throughout the year, just depending on what I'm doing. But, and it's always one of those things, like, if I try to lose weight, like, even if it's like three pounds, like, I feel like it just fluctuates like a couple pounds, but yeah. I should lose like three pounds like my pants are getting a little tight and I try to force it like it's not happening but if I like just forget about it and I'm like let me just focus on my, you know, trying to eat healthier for my performance and like shift that mind shift my mindset that it's like, okay, like Now I, all of a sudden, like, lost this weight over a couple months, like, it's, it's always been that way for me, like, I cannot force it, it just has to, I feel like I have to continue to remind myself, like, you're eating food, food for fuel, you're eating it for your performance, it's not, It's, it cannot be a forced thing for me. This is so fun.

Angie: 46:11

And like, I really was not expecting this conversation today to go in this direction at all. But I really think that we have covered some really powerful topics today. And I also think that I'm going to have to have you back on the podcast because we also didn't talk about plantar fasciitis, which is like a thing that we are. Thinking about talking about, so we'll have to have you back because, um, I don't think we should talk about that now with everything that we've already talked about. But, um, this has been such a great conversation, Lisa, thank you so much for being here. If our audience wants to connect with you and learn more from you, um, and you guys, I know we talked a lot about Lisa's personal running journey today, which was amazing. And thank you so much for sharing all of that with us, but. Lisa is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to performance and strengthening for us specifically as runners. So make sure that you're following her on social media. I'm sure a lot of you already are, but, um, tell us where

Lisa: 47:06

we can find you. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. And I would love to be back to talk about plantar fasciitis or something else to say about that. I know. Um, You can find me on Instagram, DrLisaDPT, I think it's like DR, I always forget, this is bad, dr. lisa. dpt, and then my podcast is Rehab for Runners, and, um, yeah, I'd love to connect, like, if you have any questions or like, Just want to hear your thoughts on what you thought about this episode. I'd love to connect too.

Angie: 47:39

Yeah, absolutely. And we'll, we'll put all that in the show notes as well. So, um, that you can definitely connect with Lisa. So thank you again and we will talk to you

Lisa: 47:48

soon. Sounds good. Thank you.